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Ziddle Reviews Non-Standard Lines

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Dated:
Feb 11th, 2013
By:
JP Zdancewicz
Game:
NLHE
Stake:
Small Stakes
Teaching Method:
Replayed Hands
Language:
English
Type:
Heads Up
613 Views
6 Comments
7.6710
(3 Ratings) 7.67

JP takes a break from his reviews with Coleman to create a HH replay focusing on non-standard lines played in HU matches.

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Comments

  • JPZdancewicz JPZdancewicz Bluefire Pro Poker Trainee
    188 Posts
    Ziddle Reviews Non-Standard Lines
    12 Feb 2013 at 1:24am
    Discussion for Ziddle Reviews Non-Standard Lines .
  • yassel yassel Poker Newbie
    9 Posts
    Re: Ziddle Reviews Non-Standard Lines
    13 Feb 2013 at 1:32am
    On The Q8hh hand @ 17:44 : I don't understand the value bet on the river. You 're looking to get value from weaker eights but it implies that villain is leading the turn with those hands, and you just said that you think he wouldn't do that with Tx so why would he with 8x ? If he c/c the turn with Tx we can assume that he does with 8x. After facing the c/r, you think that shoving isnt bad in your shoes. Why ? You never have a fh when you check back the flop, so you would only be repping AQ/AK which is going for super thin value, which seems dumb cause villain should himself not bet c/raising the river with trips but fh. The river call seems pretty spewy given that he probably doesn't expect you to fold trips and that you are in the bottom of your range (so game theory wise you should never b/c with this hand without a very solid read)
  • JPZdancewicz JPZdancewicz Bluefire Pro Poker Trainee
    188 Posts
    Re: Ziddle Reviews Non-Standard Lines
    13 Feb 2013 at 2:02am
    yassel- Although I agree with some of your points I should clarify a few things I should have mentioned. Given how I play certain hand ranges, this hand is, in fact, closer to the top of my range than it would be for most other players. I am trying to get value by betting, but I believe the value to be had is mainly going to come from Kx and missed draws that c/r. Occasionally I would expect some hands like 55 or 4x c/c the river as well. If our opponent is unbalanced to the point of having 0 combinations of air when he c/r's the river, we should never be betting a hand like ours. However, I certainly expect to see a significant number of missed draws when a competent opponent c/r here.
  • Kaarem Kaarem Poker Newbie
    4 Posts
    Re: Ziddle Reviews Non-Standard Lines
    15 Feb 2013 at 12:26pm
    I dont really agree with the Q8 hand either. Could you please help me understand how Q8 could be closer to the top of your range on this river? Like what bluffs do you really have in this spot by the way the action went? I just think the river bet is too thin, considering how few bluffs we have checking back flop and calling the turn lead.. We are also perceived to have tons of Ax on this river, so I dont think it would be a good spot to bluff.
  • JPZdancewicz JPZdancewicz Bluefire Pro Poker Trainee
    188 Posts
    Re: Ziddle Reviews Non-Standard Lines
    17 Mar 2013 at 6:52pm

    I apologize for not revisiting this sooner-
    I am b/cing this river for a couple reasons:
    1) With the number of Ax hands I prefer to cbet the flop with, there are very few combinations of hands I could play this way and still call his raise. I think he knows this and would be more than likely to weight his river c/r range in this spot towards air rather than value. 
    2) Knowing my range for betting the river is so weak, he made the raise much larger than I would expect a more balanced (or value-heavy) player's raise size to be. 

    Hey guys, I apologize for not revisiting this sooner-

    I am b/cing this river for a couple reasons:

    1) With the number of Ax hands I prefer to cbet the flop with, there are very few combinations of hands I could play this way and still call his raise. I think he knows this and would be more than likely to weight his river c/r range in this spot towards air rather than value. 

    2) Knowing my range for betting the river is so weak, he made the raise much larger than I would expect a more balanced (or value-heavy) player's raise size to be.

    3) Something that I've alluded to already is that there aren't many hands I can bet/call this river with, although there are plenty I could bet/fold. Unless I want to always be checking the river, I should have some hands I can call a raise with, and this is pretty close to the top of my range... especially if I ever decide to cbet the flop Q8/K8.

    Hopefully all this makes sense and answers the questions I was asked!

    JP

  • JPZdancewicz JPZdancewicz Bluefire Pro Poker Trainee
    188 Posts
    Re: Re: Ziddle Reviews Non-Standard Lines
    17 Mar 2013 at 7:00pm

    Kaarem wrote:

    I dont really agree with the Q8 hand either. Could you please help me understand how Q8 could be closer to the top of your range on this river? Like what bluffs do you really have in this spot by the way the action went? I just think the river bet is too thin, considering how few bluffs we have checking back flop and calling the turn lead.. We are also perceived to have tons of Ax on this river, so I dont think it would be a good spot to bluff.

    I definitely would not be betting all of my gutters and backdoors on the flop.

    The turn is player dependent and against most I think betting that whole range is fine, but against others that are more willing to delay bluff c/r's or that don't lead a wider range on the turn I think checking back the turn as well helps to negate alot of their EV.

    It would probably be a little too fancy to have any hands I could actually 3b the river with for value, so I don't think many people would worry about getting 3b when they c/r Ax on the river... but after I check the Ax turn back most of my range will be middle pair- most of the time I'm checking back 4x and 8x, 22, 33, 55-77. 

    If I can't have many Ax hands, and I'm not super likely to bet mid pairs, I can't imagine c/r'ing all trips or better combos is a very effective strategy.

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