Niman's Live Leveling (2)

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Dated:
Dec 30th, 2011
By:
Niman Kenkre
Game:
NLHE
Stake:
High Stakes
Teaching Method:
Replayed Hands
Language:
English
Type:
6 Max
2612 Views
14 Comments
9.6010
(5 Ratings) 9.60

Niman concludes his live leveling series reviewing the hand from Dan's perspective and from his own perspective.

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Comments

  • NimanKenkre NimanKenkre Bluefire Pro Poker Pro
    1191 Posts
    Niman's Live Leveling (2)
    30 Dec 2011 at 3:47pm
    Discussion for Niman's Live Leveling (2).
  • ryanlenaghan ryanlenaghan Poker Newbie
    1 Posts
    Re: Niman's Live Leveling (2)
    31 Dec 2011 at 1:56pm
    what was river bet size
  • NimanKenkre NimanKenkre Bluefire Pro Poker Pro
    1191 Posts
    Re: Niman's Live Leveling (2)
    31 Dec 2011 at 5:02pm
    I thought I discussed the river bet (and the reasons for its sizing) in detail at the end of the video. Am I mistaken about that? ... Anyway, I bet $2000 on the river.
  • tompoker88 tompoker88 Poker Trainee
    78 Posts
    Re: Niman's Live Leveling (2)
    1 Jan 2012 at 5:04pm
    As interesting and as well analyzed this hand was, i think that can not make up for the fact that this was only 1 hand in 2 hours. I would have MUCH preferred you to make a concept video, for example 'playing 3 bet pots oop', 'how to counter small 4 bets' etc. or the usual game review type video. Nevertheless, was nice to hear the thoughts from the other players as well.
  • menlol menlol Poker Newbie
    16 Posts
    Re: Niman's Live Leveling (2)
    2 Jan 2012 at 6:36pm
    +1 "As interesting and as well analyzed this hand was, i think that can not make up for the fact that this was only 1 hand in 2 hours. I would have MUCH preferred you to make a concept video, for example 'playing 3 bet pots oop', 'how to counter small 4 bets' etc. or the usual game review type video. Nevertheless, was nice to hear the thoughts from the other players as well."
  • NimanKenkre NimanKenkre Bluefire Pro Poker Pro
    1191 Posts
    Re: Niman's Live Leveling (2)
    3 Jan 2012 at 7:52am
    Thanks for the feedback guys. I'd like to emphasize that this will not be my "normal" style of video. I wanted to make an in-depth video of this very interesting hand, because it explores the concept of leveling in an instructional way (especially with Dan and Orson being kind enough to agree to give their thoughts). But most of my videos will be member reviews, hand history videos, concept videos, and hopefully in the not-too-distant future, playing videos.
  • aaachu aaachu Poker Newbie
    3 Posts
    Re: Niman's Live Leveling (2)
    3 Jan 2012 at 8:08pm
    Hi Niman, would like to know what you'd think about a 4bet in Orson's position on the turn over Dan's 3bet, though I am not sure of the size. Maybe the smaller Dan's drawing range in Orson's view, the smaller the raise, and possibly shove for 10k for the $3k+ in the pot. Like you all had concurred that he was the only one with the highest possibility to have a set in this particular hand, I was thinking throughout the hand that I would have thrown in a re-raise in his spot (I dont play a lot of deep stack so I am not sure if this might be a huge fundamental mistake). I understand the fact that Dan's hand made no sense, hence as a competent player it should be for value, but once he has made the initial turn call of $150 there is absolutely no way IMO (as you have analysed also) that Dan could have something stronger than Orson's hand, and I was totally shocked to even see K9 there. So all in all, I hated Dan's play there as he cannot rep anything unless he has taken such bizarre line before, I really liked your play as you had punished him for making that huge mistake, and I believe the best play in the hand would be for Orson to make the 4bet, even so deep. Would really like to see what your thoughts are on this as I was a little surprised no one had discussed this line.
  • NimanKenkre NimanKenkre Bluefire Pro Poker Pro
    1191 Posts
    Re: Niman's Live Leveling (2)
    4 Jan 2012 at 8:29am
    aaachu, this is a very good question. I think that the problem here is that if Orson chooses to put in another raise, the value of Orson being right is nowhere near the cost of him being wrong. Additionally, an important factor here is that the 9s (along with the other two suited nines) was probably the most active card in the deck on the turn. Since Orson is out of position, it could be profitable for Dan (or I) to call the raise with a draw. The problem for Orson is that there are so many legitamate draws out there - so if any draw hits, he will be in a position where he will not know if it is the one that hit his opponent or not, and he will be at their mercy being first to act on the river. So the main principle at work here is that although it is true that he has the best hand here far more often than not, with stacks as deep as they are, he does not have positive equity blowing up the pot against two good players out of position when the turn card is such that he is going to have to play an expensive guessing game on the river. It's a classic case of an oft-misunderstood concept: equity in a hand being far more important than whether or not you currently (at any point in the hand other than on the river) have the best hand. I hope that makes sense.
  • aaachu aaachu Poker Newbie
    3 Posts
    Re: Niman's Live Leveling (2)
    4 Jan 2012 at 10:01am
    Thanks for the quick response Niman. I totally agree with what you've said in any other given situation, and I understand how many bad spots Orson would be in on the river. Though for this particular hand, a very unique one for that matter, what would you think of a shove by Orson? If he had chosen to shove, he'd be taking a risk of $10k (assuming you were never calling a 4bet from Orson once you had flatted the $550) for the times he's behind and wrong, which in this situation i think is very minimal (1%? if even), for a reward of $3k (30%) for when Orson is correct, almost always. And his shove would not look fishy at all, in fact very strong, and may even fold out some value hands as strong as AQ if Dan somehow had it. Look fwd to your feedback.
  • NimanKenkre NimanKenkre Bluefire Pro Poker Pro
    1191 Posts
    Re: Niman's Live Leveling (2)
    6 Jan 2012 at 9:24am
    aaachu, I think the stacks are too awkward for Orson to shove. Dan's raise is only 1550, and to shove his entire stack over that is very awkward. The risk-reward doesn't seem to be hold up, especially when you consider that Orson had not logged too many hands with me and can't be sure that I did not check a monster on the flop. I forgot now what the effective stacks are, but he would need both of us to fold a very very high percentage of the time to make the play +EV. Having said that, this was indeed a very unique situation in which it is in fact, extremely unlikely that either Dan or myself does have anything good, so it is an interesting idea. But (especially considering that Orson doesn't know for sure that I would not check a monster on the flop - or Dan wouldn't check a hand like 99 on the flop), I think shoving would be reckless. I like your outside-the-box thinking though!
  • NimanKenkre NimanKenkre Bluefire Pro Poker Pro
    1191 Posts
    Re: Niman's Live Leveling (2)
    6 Jan 2012 at 9:26am
    aachu, I just went back and looked at the stacks. Orson started the hand with 17K, and I had him covered. If I was lurking with a monster there, he would have risked 16.5K to win 2K with just a pair and no other equity. I think that if my stack was shorter, it just might start getting to the region where it could be a viable play, but with effective stacks of 17K, it's too reckless imo.
  • aaachu aaachu Poker Newbie
    3 Posts
    Re: Niman's Live Leveling (2)
    6 Jan 2012 at 5:22pm
    Hi Niman, you said the raise was $1850 didn't you? So there was $3.2k + in the pot when action was back to Orson. I suggested the shove with the assumption that you were never calling once you made that turn $550 call, and you said this yourself, you would have raised QQ there if you had it rather than flatting on such active turn card OOP to Dan. So your best value holding is one pair at best + draws which could not call a 4bet from Orson. Though if he was really concerned he could raise to $6.5k-ish which practically put Dan all-in but can fold if you did end up shoving over the top. Again, I think the chances of you and Dan having a hand strong enough to shove is close to 0% based on your weak turn actions. The critical question here basically is whether a player as strong as yourself, and Orson knew you were a strong opponent, would trap with a set, or even two pair for that matter, on Q63-9fd in middle position after you bet, got called, and Orson check-raised. Have you ever taken or seen such funky lines on turn with monsters in your position? If so could you explain the reasoning behind it. I am a mid stakes player so it just never happens, so if I was put in Orson's spot I very well would've put that 4th raise in. Thanks by the way for taking your time in this relatively long discussion, really appreciate it.
  • willage willage Poker Newbie
    28 Posts
    Re: Niman's Live Leveling (2)
    10 Feb 2012 at 8:47am
    Hey Niman, thanks for the interesting video. Not sure if you're still watching this thread, but I just got around to watching the video the other day. What strikes me most about listening to all three players discuss the hand is that everyone perceived the hand very differently and what each player thought was important during the hand was not necessarily what his opponent thought was important. So for instance, you (Niman) thought your small river lead looked credible. But it actually ended up working because Dan thought it looked so preposterous that it couldn't possibly be a bluff. With all that in mind, what do you think we can take from this hand to improve our play?
  • Kidnhoody Kidnhoody Poker Newbie
    2 Posts
    Re: Niman's Live Leveling (2)
    9 Mar 2012 at 11:48pm
    This has to be the best format for teaching leveling! You are a guru Niman.

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