Niman's Interesting Hands

Discussion for Niman's Interesting Hands.

dont understand why c/c is so bad ott with Ad3d? you rarly c/c a FD oop as the original bettor, so he shouldnt put you on the flush when you hit it on the river and you could have implied odds. when i c/r ott like this people shove 88 in my face like always :(

Moreover, since your read tells you that he rarely or never has a big hand in that spot, isn't it unlikley that he will ever see you show up with a big hand in that spot since he won't have anything he can get to showdown with (unless your reraise induces a bluff jam from him)? So I agree that by itself the reraise is best in this hand because you don't want to give him a free shot at hitting his gutshots, but I'm not sure if I'm in agreement on the metagame justification. If the board were Q72 rainbow and therefore had no gutshots, would you you still reraise for the metagame considerations, or call and hope he catches up so you can get value on later streets?

Sorry for all the questions, but these were some really interesting/educational hands. I have 2 more about hand 1 - 1) Would your play on the turn change if you were 200bb deep and all the other variables were the same? If so, why? 2) If you bet the turn and get called and then check the river, do you expect Jcl to bet his 88 type hands on the river? If not, is betting the turn and then c/c'ing the river if you miss an option? Seems like the value you would get from his worse flush draws that miss would make up for the the value you give away when he has pocket 8s.

I should add that the above does not account for the Q happening on the turn. It is meant as a response for your plan on this flop onwards.

i rated this video a 3. seems like you have the nuts every hand except for the 22 hand. That's the only actual interesting hand. pretty much everyone knows what to do with the nuts.. its all the little things = edge in poker.

niman I normally like your vids a lot just this one was meh.

Hand 3 - If the Q on the turn was a club or a diamond bringing a back door flush and he fired, would your play change, and if so, how and why?

Hi guys, thanks for the feedback. I'll answer the comments in chronological order: (1) @Gswagg: If he has a hand that plays well heads up but not three way, I expect him to raise the flop so that he does not keep a third player in the hand. This would be the natural play for a player who expects his hand to be good but vulnerable to two other players still in the hand. (2) @kingpowl: I think a cc is a bad play for several reasons. First of all, you should have tremendous fold equity with a cr against all of his marginal hands (like 88 etc) that he would always play this way. If you cc, you lose the hand if you don't improve. Second, even if he does not necessarily put you on a flush draw if you cc, you still are not likely to have implied odds if you hit - since he is likely to not bet the river with a strong hand if a flush comes in. This is also even more true for your straight card. Third, if your opponents are shoving 88 when you cr these kinds of turns, then you should be making a lot of money, because your check raising range should have 88 absolutely crushed equity-wise. If they are PROFITABLY reraising you with marginal hands, I think you should take a look at your game and see if you are imbalanced in these situations. (3) @Gswagg, I think I said this in the video, but perhaps I didn't. On this particular board, it makes no sense for the opponent to make a raise with a monster. He also cannot have any sort of a draw on this flop other than the gutshot. When you add in the fact that I do not expect this particular opponent to double barrel bluff in this spot when called, it makes the reraise the superior play. To answer your other question, in these games, we play the same opponents over and over on a daily basis, so it would make little or no difference if a similar spot came up later in the same session. I've played too many hands and have too much of an understanding of their tendencies (and vice versa) for hands like this to affect in-session dynamics. That being said, your question is a very legitamate one - and one in which it would probably be smart to make in-game adjustments - if you are playing against an opponent who you have not logged too many hands with before such a situation came up. (4) @Gswagg, I would not barrel as a bluff in a spot where I did not feel I had much fold equity - UNLESS I already had a sense that I would be able to (a) overtake him or (b) have good fold equity with a river barrel on most cards. The plan has to be fluid of course, but I have to know that I am going to have a +EV play on most river cards before I would choose to barrel the turn when I knew I did not have great fold equity. In this particular hand of course, I knew I have far more fold equity with a turn check raise - and if needed, I can play for my stack. (5) @Gswagg again: The play would not be too different if I were 200bb deep, because I expect a huge percentage of his flop calling hands to bet the turn and fold if raised. So I am giving up too much by just barreling again (when I think a lot of his medium strength hands will call) or checking to call. However, if we are 200bb deep, I would have to fold if I check raised the turn and he reraised. However, I expect him to do that so rarely, that it would not change my play leading up to that point. I will say that being deeper does add a bit of merit to leading again - since you could conceivably call a raise in that spot. But that depends a lot on the size of the raise and your perception of your implied odds if you do call and hit. (6) @Gswagg: No, I think that firing again on the turn and then check calling the river is not a good play. The reason is that he will call again with a lot of his medium strength hands on the turn, and then I can't win the hand unless I hit the river. I would check - and then he would check back with most his medium strength range and win the hand. Meanwhile, while checking to call on the river after taking such a line would pick off a few bluffs, he is simply not going to have enough bluffs in his range there to make that a profitable play - and that is just going to be a spewy play. (7) @tompoker88: thanks for the compliments! I really appreciate your taking the time to let me know that you enjoy my videos. To answer your question, we are not deep enough for a cc turn, cr river line to be in play. More importantly, even though he will fire the turn as a bluff and for value with a lot of his range, he is going to check back on the river with a lot of his strong (but not monster) hands, so waiting for the river to attack after calling a 3bet, flop bet, and turn bet is way too optimistic if you expect him to keep firing indiscriminately. Also, many cards that can come that can ruin your action. (8) @willage: no raising the flop with a queen would be pretty foolish in my opinion. the opponent is simply not going to have hands that strong often enough - coupled with me having hands that I can continue with often enough to make this play being profitable. Especially when you consider that if he just flat calls, I will double barrel this kind of board with reasonable frequency - hoping to take him off of smaller pairs, betting on turned draws, etc. He needs to have Qx hands in his flop calling range: otherwise, if he is raising a queen here, I can almost always double and triple barrel these boards when he just calls. In other words, raising a queen makes his calling range too weak - and I can easily exploit that. I hope that makes sense. (9) @croosh: thanks for the feedback, and I am glad that you like my other videos. I really don't know what to tell you: I strongly disagree that "pretty much everyone knows what to do with the nuts." I would propose that most players would take different lines with most of the hands that I had in this video. I thought they were educational spots, which is why I made a video about them. Extracting value with a big hand and/or playing a big draw is as important (and sometimes as difficult) as making tough decisions with a marginal hand. In any case, of course you are entitled to your opinions, and I hope you like my future videos more! (10) @adrock99, I think a very important point is that he cannot have a reasonable draw on this flop. I think the rest of your question was addressed in my answer (3) above. OK guys - thanks for the questions and feedback. I hope my answers help!

hey niman, Would a click it back on the Q84r board be better? Wouldnt it look more BS?

Yeah, i agree with gosubay - clickback on Q84r is much better, because in future it will allow you to make some chip bluffs, your 3bet sizing after he made it 256 or something, 550 looks very much for value, if you was bluffing he need to fold about 49% for this move to be break even 450/(500+450) if i am not wrong. But if you make your raise to 450 - he will no be able to call it with GUT, but he need to fold only 41% for this to be break even 350/(500+350).

"@willage: no raising the flop with a queen would be pretty foolish in my opinion. the opponent is simply not going to have hands that strong often enough - coupled with me having hands that I can continue with often enough to make this play being profitable. Especially when you consider that if he just flat calls, I will double barrel this kind of board with reasonable frequency - hoping to take him off of smaller pairs, betting on turned draws, etc. He needs to have Qx hands in his flop calling range: otherwise, if he is raising a queen here, I can almost always double and triple barrel these boards when he just calls. In other words, raising a queen makes his calling range too weak - and I can easily exploit that. I hope that makes sense." Yeah, definitely makes sense, and I totally agree that as a standard gameplan in his spot, calling with his entire range for continuing makes sense. My point was just that given your strategy, if he has a hand like QJ and his only goal is to maximize his profit THIS HAND, he can make a ton of money by raising. For example, if he raises flop, checks back turn, and calls any river, he's getting 3 bets out of pretty much all your air right?

Great video, thx~

tompoker88, I did not bet/call with T9 on the QJ8 flop.  I check called. 

With regards to your example, if the stacks are such that there is no room to maneuver beyond the bet size of a certain street, you are absolutely correct that there should only be a push or fold.  However, when there is space to play further, you absolutely need to have a range (and the range needs to be intrinsically balanced) for all actions.  If you don't have a range for doing something, then an observant opponent can easily exploit you.  For instance, if you call a 3b with JTs, and the flop comes, say QJ8 rainbow with one of your suit, then check folding would be way too weak against a player who three bets and cbets aggressively.  However, check raising would be really poor too, since his better hands are going to play for your stack - with you drawing to at most 9 outs (and usually fewer) and his worse hands will always fold.  So this would be a clear-cut case where check calling would be the correct play.  And of course, to prevent being relentlessly double barreled, you need to have some strong hands in your check calling range too (as I did in the actual hand).  I hope that helps and makes sense.

Niman, in my version of the video, you raise to 28 in middle position With T9s and thenutspt calls in the cutoff. The flop comes QJ8 rainbow. You bet 51 into 71 and he raises to 135, which you call. So it's a bet/call on the flop, not a check/call. Your analysis makes perfect sense to me, if you had check/called instead of bet/called in the actual hand on the flop. I want to add what Gswaggg already said, i am really surprised and happy that we can have a discussion like that. Thank you!

About The Q84 hand, I agree when you said a raise by him on this flop is BS. Even if its suspicious I dont really see how we can combat it optimally. A 3 bet by us look even more BS, and we're reaping an even smaller value range unless we start to do it routinely with QJ+ and call a 4 bet shove. We can call out of position with some hand but we risk getting bluff out the best hand or getting value bet vs our generally weak holding. In the hand in question you had a read on the player that he woudnt barrel without it but vs a more balanced player that would make this bs raise on the flop much more dangerous. Basically I understand he is not reaping much but I dont see how we can exploit it espicially if he can 4 bet shove the flop with marginal holding or float vs our flops 3 bet. I understand the Bs part but I dont see why its should be bad. The other hand 22 vs a 3 bettor were you metionned from a theory stand point you had to call more often small bet on the flop. How does this help if hes double barelling a lot in this spot ?