John at 400PLO HU

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Dated:
Jul 16th, 2011
By:
JP Zdancewicz
Game:
PLO
Stake:
Mid Stakes
Teaching Method:
Session Video 1 - 2 Table
Language:
English
Type:
Heads Up
2275 Views
11 Comments
6.3310
(3 Ratings) 6.33

In his second trial video, John reviews a session of 400PLO HU vs. Pokapotamous.  EDIT: Views (2145) and Rating (9.75) were reset on 8/11/2011.

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Comments

  • PhilGalfond PhilGalfond Bluefire Pro Poker Pro
    554 Posts
    John at 400PLO HU
    16 Jul 2011 at 6:56am
    Discussion for John at 400PLO HU.
  • Banankaka Banankaka Poker Newbie
    4 Posts
    Re: John at 400PLO HU
    17 Jul 2011 at 5:15am
    17min in the video on the 5c Jd 4d 8h, you bet 52 into 180 with 400 behind, care to explain your betsize? I agree you have 76xx more often than him, but would you ever bet 52 with that hand in reality? I think no. Wouldn't it be better to bet big enough to get most of the stacks in on the river? You rep stronger vs his weak range better + pick up a bigger turn bet when you bomb river.
  • nhilathak nhilathak Poker Newbie
    1 Posts
    Re: John at 400PLO HU
    18 Jul 2011 at 5:34am
    You said something about a pokerstove-like program for plo that you can purchase. Would you mind telling me the exact product name, can't seem to find anything rly decent to calculate range equities in plo.
  • Banankaka Banankaka Poker Newbie
    4 Posts
    Re: John at 400PLO HU
    18 Jul 2011 at 5:37am
    propokertools.com
  • JPZdancewicz JPZdancewicz Bluefire Pro Poker Trainee
    188 Posts
    Re: John at 400PLO HU
    18 Jul 2011 at 8:25am

    Hey guys, thanks for the comments. Keep em comin'

  • JPZdancewicz JPZdancewicz Bluefire Pro Poker Trainee
    188 Posts
    Re: Re: John at 400PLO HU
    18 Jul 2011 at 8:35am

    Banankaka wrote:

    17min in the video on the 5c Jd 4d 8h, you bet 52 into 180 with 400 behind, care to explain your betsize? I agree you have 76xx more often than him, but would you ever bet 52 with that hand in reality? I think no. Wouldn't it be better to bet big enough to get most of the stacks in on the river? You rep stronger vs his weak range better + pick up a bigger turn bet when you bomb river.

    This is a pretty interesting hand for a few reasons. As I mention in the video, players all play so differently that it could be possible that when he c/c's in 3b pots he always has draws.  Its equally likely that he never has weak draws.  To be completely honest I sortof remember trying to bet 152 on that turn, so I'm like 80% sure this was a misclick... but with that said I dont mind an underbet here.  You make a good point that this is awkward sizing, and I agree.  The proper size to make a bet with the intention of jamming rivers would be ~80 to set up a substantial river size jam.

    Some people will argue that underbetting turns is a great tactic to induce more river calls by decreasing the fold equity on one street, but I would contend that in todays games it is the opposite. Their reasoning is something like: by decreasing turn FE and increasing river's FE you cant make the total FE the amount you would by betting normal on both streets(therefore decreasing total FE).  Some players will call more river shoves, plain and simple, but for the most part you will get more folds on the river than the turn.  Because of this, betting small will be a something like a valuebet since we expect to win the pot on the river a profitable frequency.  This is, of course, an assumption.

     

    I feel it does need to be said that if we were slightly deeper the details of this hand change a bit and an underbet becomes more relevant with vulnerability of our potential hand.  If we did actually have 67xx there are so many rivers that are bad for our hand that pot controlling with the nuts is profitable.  Especially once you factor in the lack of value we will get from worse hands on all of those rivers.

  • JPZdancewicz JPZdancewicz Bluefire Pro Poker Trainee
    188 Posts
    Re: Re: John at 400PLO HU
    18 Jul 2011 at 8:37am

    nhilathak wrote:

    You said something about a pokerstove-like program for plo that you can purchase. Would you mind telling me the exact product name, can't seem to find anything rly decent to calculate range equities in plo.

    I actually wasnt talking about propokertools but I have never used this product and dont know the name, sorry. 

    I generally find that by simply plugging ranges into propokertools or twodimes you can get pretty good statistics on frequencies and ranges.  Will help tons to just keep one of those sites up and constantly plug in hands as you play.  Change around the hole cards as you figure out what the major differences are in the hands.

  • styx2000 styx2000 Poker Newbie
    2 Posts
    Re: John at 400PLO HU
    22 Jul 2011 at 9:34am

    Hi, towards the end of the video you talk about one of your strategies vs this opponent is to get it in for value preflop. you cite as one of the reasons, that preflop edges are so small that you have to take any you can get. don't you think that it might be more profitable to just call 3bets and 4bets pre and get the hands in on the flop and also have some fold equity on the flop? not with AAxx, but with ds rundowns or QQA5ss or stuff like that.

    also i believe you said you would get it in pre for value with double suited middle rundowns, i can't imagine that to be a great idea unless he 4-bet/folds a lot. double suited middle rundowns don't even have great equity against the worse hands in his 5b-range like AKQ6ss, and of course he will have some KK and AA as well.

    one more point - i remember you saying something like "this is a situation where he either has you beat or not" several times. i assume you are referring to what i know as way-ahead/way-behind situations, you might want to clarify your phrasing there (english is my second language though, so i might be wrong).

    i still liked the video though, you went into about the right amount of detail per hand that i'm personally looking for and were discussing some interesting points regarding hand ranges in connection with certain board texture or which turn card improve what ranges.

    EDIT: added paragaphs for you :)

  • JPZdancewicz JPZdancewicz Bluefire Pro Poker Trainee
    188 Posts
    Re: Re: John at 400PLO HU
    26 Jul 2011 at 1:37am

    styx2000 wrote:

    Hi, towards the end of the video you talk about one of your strategies vs this opponent is to get it in for value preflop. you cite as one of the reasons, that preflop edges are so small that you have to take any you can get. don't you think that it might be more profitable to just call 3bets and 4bets pre and get the hands in on the flop and also have some fold equity on the flop? not with AAxx, but with ds rundowns or QQA5ss or stuff like that.

    also i believe you said you would get it in pre for value with double suited middle rundowns, i can't imagine that to be a great idea unless he 4-bet/folds a lot. double suited middle rundowns don't even have great equity against the worse hands in his 5b-range like AKQ6ss, and of course he will have some KK and AA as well.

    one more point - i remember you saying something like "this is a situation where he either has you beat or not" several times. i assume you are referring to what i know as way-ahead/way-behind situations, you might want to clarify your phrasing there (english is my second language though, so i might be wrong).

    i still liked the video though, you went into about the right amount of detail per hand that i'm personally looking for and were discussing some interesting points regarding hand ranges in connection with certain board texture or which turn card improve what ranges.

    EDIT: added paragaphs for you :)

    Couple things-

    I think I may have mis-spoke because when I said I was going to make an adjustment by playing my hands more aggro pre for value, I meant to say that since normally when 4betting/5betting you are only pushing very small edges vs a strong range I would be able to push a larger edge against a much weaker range that this particular player was willing to get in pre.  I also think that there are times where you have to be willing to take on some variance in order to realize your true equity vs his range(ie. getting it in with rundowns vs some high cards rather than calling always and having him barrel or fold on boards that are coordinated).

    Also, I cant remember off the top of my head what you refer to when I said "he either is ahead or not" but I think you are applying the WA/WB concept incorrectly.  Usually, I only talk about a player being ahead or behind when deciding how big to make my river bluff sizes(and value ofc).  WA/WB usually refers to spots where we are going to try and push our opponent off a range while having some equity in the hand(and therefore never river decisions).  Hope this clears up some confusion.

    Ziddle

  • JPZdancewicz JPZdancewicz Bluefire Pro Poker Trainee
    188 Posts
    Re: Re: John at 400PLO HU
    26 Jul 2011 at 1:54am

    styx2000 wrote:

    one more point - i remember you saying something like "this is a situation where he either has you beat or not" several times. i assume you are referring to what i know as way-ahead/way-behind situations, you might want to clarify your phrasing there (english is my second language though, so i might be wrong).

    After asking a few friends I guess it's not uncommon to use the wa/wb concept regarding river bets, but I just generally think in terms of thinness and use wa/wb regarding flop and turn.  Obv if you have the top of your range vs a weak villain rage you are wa but that just sounds goofy to me so w/e.  In this video and for future reference I would generally be refering to spots where I expect the villain to not have a decision.  AKA a hand where he would either have top 2+ or a missed fd, etc.  Therefore, when I have air in these types of spots I can make smaller betsizes since I expect my opponent to simply call when he has the top of his range and fold when he has the bottom of the range.  I dont really like using the term "polarized" very much, but I guess you could say that is something I look for in these spots as well.

  • shaymalus shaymalus Poker Newbie
    9 Posts
    Re: John at 400PLO HU
    1 Aug 2011 at 6:11am
    Hi, I like the video and would love to see some more HU PLO stuff. FWIW I think your edge here v's this villain is massively post flop, contrary to what you said at the end. A poorly though out preflop strategy is easier to see but usually does not come with a well thought out postflop game esp when it has huge errors like the 5b jam. keep it up.

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