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Martin discusses unusual play.
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Martin discusses unusual play.
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539 Posts
Giggy's Unconventional Lines and Adapations
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Re: Re: Giggy's Unconventional Lines and Adapations
Definitely a good idea, I'll keep that in note for the future!
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Re: Re: Giggy's Unconventional Lines and Adapations
Well at first glance I didn't like the card for a couple of reasons... first I'm pretty much never ever donkleading 8x on the flop, so there's no way I will be able to represent that later in the hand. On the other hand, he can very well have an 8 in his hand and I'd be firing into a lot of trouble, and a very good player could decide to represent 8x and raise the turn + fire river, leaving me in a really awkward spot with pretty much 100% of my range. There's also the fact that absolutely no flopped gutshot got there, so he's not very likely to be folding any sort of pair because it's definitely going to be a big part of my donklead range.
On the other hand, I could still have fired the turn because like I said no gutshot got there and it's going to be a big part of HIS range as well. I think in such a situation, it's depending a lot on wether I think my opponent is likely to either call me down light or play back at me if I continue donkleading, because he's in a much better spot to do that now basically with that turn card. But still, a lot of players will not recognize that and simply give up anything under Qx on the turn, so firing vs. them would be good. Definitely an interesting decision, and one where I want to have a very good idea of the % of the time that my opponent will just give up if he doesn't have much of a hand.
I definitely did not elaborate that part enough so very good question... First thing that his hand tells me is that he's a thinking player. Most NITfishes will just 4-bomb here because hey they have AK oop, so that's what you're "supposed to do". He also took quite some time for every decision, which means that he's definitely thinking about his future actions when faced with an unusual spot (like this one).
I think he's also likely to slowplay a lot of big hands vs me once he's played this one like that. His flat call preflop also tells me that he probably understands the fact that my 3-bet range is probably very polarized there, so he wants to keep my weaker holdings in.
He's also probably definitely aware of the fact that you want to keep a wide range of hands against a good hand reader in situations where they're likely to put pressure on you, so that they can't put as much pressure basically. He might do that consciously or not, but that definitely means that he's going to try and not turn his hands face up against me, probably playing a little trickier than he would against other players.
So yeah from that point on I will definitely include a lot more possible holdings in his hand ranges when I'm in hands against him. I think the biggest adjustment I will make is to be aware of the fact that he's likely to try and outlevel me by taking nonstandard lines, so I will adjust my level of thinking to that, and not categorize him as a "regular TAG who plays like all the other regular TAGs".
So yeah this might not be super clean as it is pretty hard to explain, but the biggest thing that hand does is give me a lot of info for me to adapt to the level I think he will be on for the rest of the session, and if I get all that right I should be able to always stay one level ahead of his adjustments and have good timings and good reads on him.
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Re: Re: Giggy's Unconventional Lines and Adapations
Yeah sorry about the rambling, I think I basically tried to do too many things at once in the video, and I can understand if it's kind of tough to listen to.
I'll learn from that in the future, thanks!
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Yeah good idea I'll try that for the next live sessions. I'm also trying to do that when I play at my regular games, so you should see some videos of hand reviewing pretty soon.
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Very good question but it's obviously very tough to explain out of the blue like that. I think the answer I gave a couple of posts above about getting reads on the 3-bet hand where my opponent flatted AK oop is a good example of that kind of read about tendencies of my opponents.
The thing is that you basically want to know on what level they are thinking... wether they think you will hero call in a certain situation, wether they think that bluffing is only good when scare cards come or they do it even when scare cards doesn't come. Or if they are the type of guy to only bluff when the range of their opponent is very weak, or if they will try to make people fold big hands from time to time.
Those are just examples and I could get hundreds of them. When you can find the right answers to these questions the adjustments are usually pretty easy to make.
What you want to do is basically get to know your opponent's game as much as possible and as quick as possible. Being aware of your own thinking processes and your own ranges in different situations is a good way to get accustomed to decorticating that kind of thing. Sometimes you might find yourself in a spot where you shove the river with the nuts, and think to yourself "man this is dumb, I only have the nuts 100% of the time here". Well in that kind of situation you definitely don't want to stop your thinking process there... you want to elaborate with stuff like "well, could this make it a good bluff spot?" and "Out of everyone at the table, is their anyone who could pull that kind of bluff? If so why? Is it the kind of thing that could make him a tougher/better player?"
Constantly thinking about this kind of things while you play is the kind of thing that will skyrocket your understanding of the game, and at the same time sharpen your ability to get reads of thinking and timing on your opponents. The more you do it, the more recurring patterns you'll see in your opponents and the better you'll get at adjusting to those quickly.
So yeah it's a lot of little different things that you absolutely have to experiment to fully understand. I can just give you guidelines as to what to think about, but from here on it's your job to understand these concepts by experimenting them yourself, by trial-and-error and by basically just being aware of the psychological dynamics at the table.
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Re: Giggy's Unconventional Lines and Adapations
This was a very cool vid again. I personally find that you rly put a lot of effort into your vids and I have the feel that you rly wanna provide so much (regards to a special topic) as possible - that is cool, keep on;)
Here is my feedback+questions:
Min. 11.53 – A9o:
Would you also val.bet here a hand so large after Villain checked back the flop+turn? I personally just bet in such spots on the river with my whole bettingrange aorund 60% of the pot.
Min. 17.45 – 93s: On a blank I would either also give up or 1,5x overbet the river vs. obv. Tx-hands and sometimes 8x-hands – have personally some good experiences on this one in limped pots vs. fishes where they mostly have on the river maximally a 2ndpair…
Min. 19.40 – QJo: After watched this hand, I would be in general interested in what are your thoughts on notetaking. Many ppl for example would take here a note that the fish has his Bluffinflectionpoint in such a spot on the river. You in general are seeming to make less notes – or are you making more notes when you paly private and during vids you do not want to spend to much tiem on it b/c there are other interesting thinks to talk about?
Min. 25 – JTo: I guess there is not enough value in C/Claling the river vs. a few busted FD-combos b/c Villain has here way more combos of better val.hands which he will val.bet here vs. you (QxXc, QJ, KJ,AJ…)? Or would you ever consider here a C/Call? If not, which would be the worst hand here with you would think that a val.bet is too thin, but a C/Call profitable?
Min. 27.50 – T9s: Would you on the river ever consider to C/Bluffjam a hand like 9hXh or just a weak Madehand which cannot/don`t wanna call the river? Or which other potential bluffcombos could you rep which did not bet on the turn, but C/Called it? Min.
36.23 – A3o: What would you have done if your turnbet would get raised here? And is this your default betsize in such a spot? I mean, this is a great card to continue potential Bluffs from the flop, so I would tend to bet here my whole range somewhat bigger.
General question: Do you use this smaller 3betsizes also randomly vs. the REGs at your level with who you are playing against very often? Or just rly vs. more unknown ppl to get more of an idea of them and just develop faster reads?
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Camtasia for Mac
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A9o :
Depends on the player, not against this guy. Because I know he will fold basically close to 100% when I make it close to pot. So I will value bet smaller. It's unbalanced, but a great example of me willing to be unbalanced to exploit a weakness of my opponent i.e. never calling a big bet here.
93s :
Good idea I agree. It's frustrating when villain turns over the weird AA or KK, but yeah it might not be like monstruous +EV type of bluff (among other things because you have to overbet), but still +EV
QJo (note taking) :
I definitely don't take as many notes as most players... I think this is a combination of me being pretty lazy and having a really good memory. I advocate a lot more note taking than I do because it's obviously very good, but I personally get away with not taking many notes even when I play by myself because I tend to have a really good memory for players and their playing styles + I want my reads to keep evolving as I play hands against someone and that would involve too much effort I think to delete what I think might no longer be relevant and replace it with new reads all the time.
JTo :
I would def. consider a check/call depending on timing + sizing... remember that if he bets like 1/2 you have to be right only 1/4 of the time for you call to be neutral EV, so he doesn't need that many combos of bluff for a call to be good (even when he goes 2/3 or 3/4). I'm not really good at calculating combos, but fwiw I think he's raising AJ/KJ a huge % of the time on the flop (knowing I like to donklead), so this leaves him with a lot less value combos than what might look like, or what he might have against a different player.
T9s :
Yeah I would def. consider it under the right circumstances against the right player, especially one who is not going to hero call ever here. And I don't understand the 2nd part of your question, sorry.
A3o :
Fuck it, I'm going broke ;). Tbh though I don't think I get raised a lot here, because with the stack sizes and the fact we're left with a pot sized river bet he's going to flat a flush pretty much always, and any other made hand as well. If he raises I probably expect him to turn over something like AcJx (that type of hand) more than anything else, and he could just think I'm full of crap from taking the weird line and try a bluff with even a weaker hand.
And I don't feel like betting bigger, because when I bluff I want to lay myself a better price, I think I should be looking to bet that size with pretty much everything... exceptions being maybe AcJx or AcKx that is trying to commit itself/look strong, or with a value hand that is trying to look like AcJx or AcKx (against someone who would handread me on that if I bet big). It would be different if we were deeper, but you rarely can go wrong in those situations by leaving yourself around a pot-sized river bet, it just keeps many more doors open for later.
General question :
Yes, I do. Sometimes because they play back badly to them, sometimes because we're deep and I just want to juice the pot a little, sometimes with monsters because they'll think I'm never doing that with monsters, etc. There are as many reasons as there are players.
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Re: Giggy's Unconventional Lines and Adapations
Thank you very much for all your answers - much rly rly interesting stuff, I could find inside:)
@T9s:
Ah no prob^^
I just meant wit the 2ndpart which bluffcombos on the river you could rep by C/Jam it in order to get called from Onepairhands like Villain did there with his KQ....
But you have actually already answered the question - so it is clear now:)
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Re: Re: Giggy's Unconventional Lines and Adapations
Well my plan is going to be different for every card and every opponent in that situation (turn)... when you take such unusual lines you usually need a good understanding of what's going to be your opponent's calling and folding ranges after calling the flop.
But here, let's say the turn is a 5d or any other similar brick, I'd probably keep it simple and fire a pretty good bet as a bluff... there are so many draws he's going to be calling flop with that won't be able to call turn on a big bet that I think this is massively +EV given how often I'll be taking down the pot.
Another option could be to go into check-calling mode, given that he probably won't bet his weak made hands and will probably bet most of his draws for a couple of streets. But this is really dangerous, as all of his draws have massive equity and that I could end up losing a pretty big pot given that he's going to be in a pretty easy spot to valuebet KQ+. So yeah, I prefer a good bet on the turn and then shutdown on the river, given that when he calls the turn he'll probably have a made hand much more than a draw on a big bet.
As for the river, it's a close decision but I decided to shove because I think KQ will have a really hard time to fold. And KQ is a huge part of his range. I could also see him go for some crazy hero-call with AQ, given how I could be flat-out bluffing with my range and how polarized my range looks.
The problem with checking is that I don't think he's turning any Qx into a bluff and I don't think he has air either. So check-calling isn't much of an option. The debate is basically between shoving and check-folding, and I thought he would call often enough with KQ or a rare AQ for the times he's going to show up with a flush. And I also don't have to deal with getting bluffed out of the pot on some rare random occasions (the guy is aggressive, and you can't really ever put a 0% chance of bluffing). And losing a pot I should win is extremely costly. But I agree it's a close situation, and my shove could be slightly less good than a check-fold, but I'm pretty sure a check-call is the worst option.
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I agree with the idea but I don't really like that board, for the reason that there are so many possible gutshots out there that if someone is ever going to call you down on a bluff in that situation it's definitely going to be on that board. It's still going to be +EV, but I'd much much more prefer doing it on a Q83 board instead of a Q84 board.
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This was an incredible video! I'm looking forward to the future parts of this series.
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