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cmizzles3687
Poker Newbie
36 PostsPhilosophy Episode 4
Hey Phil, interesting video, and i'm really glad you made it because this is a spot that i do find myself in quite often. A couple of questions though, you mention one of the pros to calling is that we have implied odds. Don't we have reverse implied odds here? If it flops A53r, are we not getting stacked by AK everytime? or 853 against an overpair? I understand your point about how, he's going to be flopping less than top pair pretty often, however on a lot of these dry flops where he c-bets small and we make a small raise, aren't we not really repping much? I understand that he only needs to fold X% of the time, but it just seems like we're risking a lot and repping very little. I just think without any sort of dynamic where we suspect someone might be 4 betting light, It's probably better to just fold?
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aaronzody83
Poker Newbie
3 PostsRe: Philosophy Episode 4
I understand that he only needs to fold X% of the time, but it just seems like we're risking a lot and repping very little.
Defently it adds some balance. Five betting w/ AA KK looks super strong, so im sure we all flat here a ton. If i was in our opponents shoe's i would be considering that.
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eddddge
Poker Newbie
9 PostsRe: Philosophy Episode 4
I dont think we can separate pre and postflop the way you're trying to here. That our preflop call would make money if the betting ended their isnt all that relevant imo. Since stacks are so shallow and our hand is behind our opponents range you're creating situations where allthough continuing on the flop/turn is more profitable than folding we're losing money on every dollar that goes into the put. Say with 75s we're often flopping somewhere between 20-50% equity and we're putting ourselves in a position where due to the pot odds created by our preflop call we're forced to get more money in bad.
You're bringing this up as a positive while I think it's actually a negative, if we're going to call
4bets it's better to have hands like KQ/AQ/KJ/etc where when we hit the flop we're in a spot where we're ahead of his range more often. Barry Greenstein wrote about this from a limit perspective (the people he were correcting were missusing preflop pot odds in a much more basic way than you're using them but I think this still applies) http://www.pokerroad.com/forums/red-pro-strategy-discussions/906-math-discussion-about-preflop-odds-epic-o8-thread.html Since we're so rarely getting a flop we're ahead of our opponents range we need to make him fold a very significant amount of the time for our preflop call to be profitable. The examples you showed off bluffraising in certain spots, say we need him to fold 40% for a bluffraise to be better than folding and he's actually folding 55% that doesnt mean we made money calling pre, those extra times he folds needs to make up for both our preflop call aswell as times
we are forced to put money in behind / forced to fold. Basically this is a very long winded way of saying
that by calling 4bets with weak hands I believe we're putting ourselves in a reverse implied odds spot.
I also dont agree with your arguments about what our range looks like. When someone is playing high stakes and sees omgclayaiken maybe he is intimidated when you call his 4bet or puts you on a very strong range but if a random 1/2 player calls a 4bet their percieved range is extremely weak imo also as soon as your opponent has seen you show down 57s in a 4bet pot even once it seems unlikely you're
going to be given much credit in the future?
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Dustylove
Poker Newbie
18 PostsRe: Philosophy Episode 4
Really happy about the subject since it's something I've done a lot of messing around with 4bets lately. Basically I'm getting 4bet a ton since I'm fairly aggro and I've been playing on the same site for a very long time and kind of gotten most mid stakes players to feel that I tend to be a spazzreg with severe FPS. Also, their sizeing seems to be fairly retarded from time to time and I've started dealing with that by calling 4bets very light in position and fairly light out of position.
Some random ramblings:
The first thing to consider here is their pf-range. If I'm calling 4bets with J9s they should obviously 4bet AJo for value but if I'm either fairly tight with the calls and/or only fold/shoves vs small 4bets (with a resonable range that's not THAT bluffshove happy) they should probably not 4bet it. Basically I feel that there's two different things to consider about the ranges;
How tight/loose they are and how apllied they are to pure equity vs post flop playability. If your 4bets would be shoves they would consist of a bunch of strong hand and then some bluffshoves (most probably Axs and low pocket pairs) but most people prefer to 4bet small. You need a sufficient % of those hands to be the kind that can call a shove, and depending on how high the villians 3bet% and will to bluffshove are you can put in a wider and wider range of calling hands.
I guess that in most positions in a aggro 6max game involving late positions and steals the range you put up is the tightest range you should use and vs more aggressive people you can start adding things like 77+, AQ, maybe AJs etc to snap shoves with.
If, however, you feel that they 3bet a ton and also calls 4bets light instead of shoving you'll need to put in more hands that plays well vs their range of a few slowplayed monsters and a bunch of random (most often) suited high cards. You can therefore ad things like KQ, KJs and such since they dominated a fair few hands and tend to flop a lot of equity on a decent amount of boards.
As long as someone, for some reason, doesn't adapt this way and still 4bet bluffs a fair bit I feel that the odds you're getting to call (actually, sometimes even out of position) with things like QJs and even much worse are really good. The trick, I feel without enough data to know if it's right, is to remmember that you're calling for pot odds and thus can give up the majority of flops without feeling to bad about yourself. Before you're randomly shoving a ton of money into the pot it might be good to actually have some kind of gutshot, preferably and overcard or two etc. Since you're making a ton of money every time you get the villian to fold and you're probably making a lot of money against his range every time you flop a decent draw and/or top pair those 10-12bb extra you called pf will pay off enough those times you actually decide to fight for the pot that you don't need to win very often to actually make a it worth it (that is, if your 3bet was profitable to begin with).
Other points:
- With a stupid enough image it's actually possible to turn things like KQo into a implied odds hand. If they know that you're aggro and from time to time do stupid shit people will often stack off or at least pay off a ton with stuff like 77 on K32r since "how on earth can you have a K!?".
- People actually check/fold some when you call them. Especially if they're low on self-esteem right now (that's game flow for you!). It's hard to keep the pressure up when things are going badly and you don't hit much. Probably only a concern with less then great players, but I feel it strongly sometimes and I'm a 3.5-4bb/100 winner on 5/10 over a large sample according to my HEM (although, I'm notorious for running good so if I was normal lucky over the last quarter million hands on that stake I'd probably be closer to a 2bb winner).
- Calling 4bets keeps people from 4betting you light since they will see you calling a 4bet with Q7s once and then simply stop 4bet bluffin you. This only applies to bad TAGs, but still.
- Other image concerns: You'll look retarded from time to time. This is great.
I would, however, like to add that I'm not very sure of any of this :/
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cmizzles3687
Poker Newbie
36 PostsRe: Philosophy Episode 4
aaronzody83 wrote:
I understand that he only needs to fold X% of the time, but it just seems like we're risking a lot and repping very little.
Defently it adds some balance. Five betting w/ AA KK looks super strong, so im sure we all flat here a ton. If i was in our opponents shoe's i would be considering that.
I definetly agree we should be flatting here some of the time, however just hand combinations wise combined with the times that we 5 bet shove, we just aren't going to show up with AA/KK here THAT often to where we can be profitably bluff raise those dry boards.
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cmizzles3687
Poker Newbie
36 PostsRe: Philosophy Episode 4
Dustylove wrote:
Really happy about the subject since it's something I've done a lot of messing around with 4bets lately. Basically I'm getting 4bet a ton since I'm fairly aggro and I've been playing on the same site for a very long time and kind of gotten most mid stakes players to feel that I tend to be a spazzreg with severe FPS. Also, their sizeing seems to be fairly retarded from time to time and I've started dealing with that by calling 4bets very light in position and fairly light out of position.
Some random ramblings:
The first thing to consider here is their pf-range. If I'm calling 4bets with J9s they should obviously 4bet AJo for value but if I'm either fairly tight with the calls and/or only fold/shoves vs small 4bets (with a resonable range that's not THAT bluffshove happy) they should probably not 4bet it. Basically I feel that there's two different things to consider about the ranges;
How tight/loose they are and how apllied they are to pure equity vs post flop playability. If your 4bets would be shoves they would consist of a bunch of strong hand and then some bluffshoves (most probably Axs and low pocket pairs) but most people prefer to 4bet small. You need a sufficient % of those hands to be the kind that can call a shove, and depending on how high the villians 3bet% and will to bluffshove are you can put in a wider and wider range of calling hands.
I guess that in most positions in a aggro 6max game involving late positions and steals the range you put up is the tightest range you should use and vs more aggressive people you can start adding things like 77+, AQ, maybe AJs etc to snap shoves with.
If, however, you feel that they 3bet a ton and also calls 4bets light instead of shoving you'll need to put in more hands that plays well vs their range of a few slowplayed monsters and a bunch of random (most often) suited high cards. You can therefore ad things like KQ, KJs and such since they dominated a fair few hands and tend to flop a lot of equity on a decent amount of boards.
As long as someone, for some reason, doesn't adapt this way and still 4bet bluffs a fair bit I feel that the odds you're getting to call (actually, sometimes even out of position) with things like QJs and even much worse are really good. The trick, I feel without enough data to know if it's right, is to remmember that you're calling for pot odds and thus can give up the majority of flops without feeling to bad about yourself. Before you're randomly shoving a ton of money into the pot it might be good to actually have some kind of gutshot, preferably and overcard or two etc. Since you're making a ton of money every time you get the villian to fold and you're probably making a lot of money against his range every time you flop a decent draw and/or top pair those 10-12bb extra you called pf will pay off enough those times you actually decide to fight for the pot that you don't need to win very often to actually make a it worth it (that is, if your 3bet was profitable to begin with).
Other points:
- With a stupid enough image it's actually possible to turn things like KQo into a implied odds hand. If they know that you're aggro and from time to time do stupid shit people will often stack off or at least pay off a ton with stuff like 77 on K32r since "how on earth can you have a K!?".
- People actually check/fold some when you call them. Especially if they're low on self-esteem right now (that's game flow for you!). It's hard to keep the pressure up when things are going badly and you don't hit much. Probably only a concern with less then great players, but I feel it strongly sometimes and I'm a 3.5-4bb/100 winner on 5/10 over a large sample according to my HEM (although, I'm notorious for running good so if I was normal lucky over the last quarter million hands on that stake I'd probably be closer to a 2bb winner).
- Calling 4bets keeps people from 4betting you light since they will see you calling a 4bet with Q7s once and then simply stop 4bet bluffin you. This only applies to bad TAGs, but still.
- Other image concerns: You'll look retarded from time to time. This is great.
I would, however, like to add that I'm not very sure of any of this :/
I agree with almost everything you said, but flopping top pair with KQo is not quite the same as flopping top pair with A8cc.
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Eevert
Poker Newbie
1 PostsRe: Philosophy Episode 4
Dustylove wrote:
Really happy about the subject since it's something I've done a lot of messing around with 4bets lately. Basically I'm getting 4bet a ton since I'm fairly aggro and I've been playing on the same site for a very long time and kind of gotten most mid stakes players to feel that I tend to be a spazzreg with severe FPS. Also, their sizeing seems to be fairly retarded from time to time and I've started dealing with that by calling 4bets very light in position and fairly light out of position.
Some random ramblings:
The first thing to consider here is their pf-range. If I'm calling 4bets with J9s they should obviously 4bet AJo for value but if I'm either fairly tight with the calls and/or only fold/shoves vs small 4bets (with a resonable range that's not THAT bluffshove happy) they should probably not 4bet it. Basically I feel that there's two different things to consider about the ranges;
How tight/loose they are and how apllied they are to pure equity vs post flop playability. If your 4bets would be shoves they would consist of a bunch of strong hand and then some bluffshoves (most probably Axs and low pocket pairs) but most people prefer to 4bet small. You need a sufficient % of those hands to be the kind that can call a shove, and depending on how high the villians 3bet% and will to bluffshove are you can put in a wider and wider range of calling hands.
I guess that in most positions in a aggro 6max game involving late positions and steals the range you put up is the tightest range you should use and vs more aggressive people you can start adding things like 77+, AQ, maybe AJs etc to snap shoves with.
If, however, you feel that they 3bet a ton and also calls 4bets light instead of shoving you'll need to put in more hands that plays well vs their range of a few slowplayed monsters and a bunch of random (most often) suited high cards. You can therefore ad things like KQ, KJs and such since they dominated a fair few hands and tend to flop a lot of equity on a decent amount of boards.
As long as someone, for some reason, doesn't adapt this way and still 4bet bluffs a fair bit I feel that the odds you're getting to call (actually, sometimes even out of position) with things like QJs and even much worse are really good. The trick, I feel without enough data to know if it's right, is to remmember that you're calling for pot odds and thus can give up the majority of flops without feeling to bad about yourself. Before you're randomly shoving a ton of money into the pot it might be good to actually have some kind of gutshot, preferably and overcard or two etc. Since you're making a ton of money every time you get the villian to fold and you're probably making a lot of money against his range every time you flop a decent draw and/or top pair those 10-12bb extra you called pf will pay off enough those times you actually decide to fight for the pot that you don't need to win very often to actually make a it worth it (that is, if your 3bet was profitable to begin with).
Other points:
- With a stupid enough image it's actually possible to turn things like KQo into a implied odds hand. If they know that you're aggro and from time to time do stupid shit people will often stack off or at least pay off a ton with stuff like 77 on K32r since "how on earth can you have a K!?".
- People actually check/fold some when you call them. Especially if they're low on self-esteem right now (that's game flow for you!). It's hard to keep the pressure up when things are going badly and you don't hit much. Probably only a concern with less then great players, but I feel it strongly sometimes and I'm a 3.5-4bb/100 winner on 5/10 over a large sample according to my HEM (although, I'm notorious for running good so if I was normal lucky over the last quarter million hands on that stake I'd probably be closer to a 2bb winner).
- Calling 4bets keeps people from 4betting you light since they will see you calling a 4bet with Q7s once and then simply stop 4bet bluffin you. This only applies to bad TAGs, but still.
- Other image concerns: You'll look retarded from time to time. This is great.
I would, however, like to add that I'm not very sure of any of this :/
Thats a really good post.
Is it just me or should even the most simplified 4bet range also have AQ in it (i mean who 4bets TT but not AQ)? I guess that'd change the math on bluffing low boards quite a bit (given you assume your opponent actually folds overs ofc).
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Dustylove
Poker Newbie
18 PostsRe: Philosophy Episode 4
Eevert wrote:
Thats a really good post.
Is it just me or should even the most simplified 4bet range also have AQ in it (i mean who 4bets TT but not AQ)? I guess that'd change the math on bluffing low boards quite a bit (given you assume your opponent actually folds overs ofc).
Never done the math but if I'd have to put money on it I'd say that AQo should be in most ranges if people actually shoved enough. However, despite how wild and crazy mid stakes are generally considered there are a ton of people against which you can't 4bet it just because they have no balls what so ever and thus a very small range of hands you're doing good against.
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InsideMan
Poker Newbie
22 PostsRe: Philosophy Episode 4
Thanks for making this video from my side too. I get in these spots occasionally, but haven't gotten round to doing much analysis on them yet, because they don't occur too frequently. I'd been simply avoiding flatting 4bets w/ less than 150bb, but I believe HUD players have been picking up on this tendency and have been making really small 4bets vs me, because I haven't been flatting 4bets. This enables them to save money on 4bet-bluffs, but at the same time if they're frequency for 4betting is the same as when they make a bigger 4bet I'm getting worse odds on 5bet shoving light so I think a better adjustment than 5bet shoving more is to call some 4bets. I've been cheating by flatting strong occasionally when I get 4bet small and just shoving or folding most of my range so my call 4bet is >0, but I should definetly think about these spots some more.
@ AQ
I definetly agree that it's tough to 4bet call AQ vs most of your opponents. I'm sure it's minus EV against alot of the MSNL regs in a normal dynamic, particullarly from UTG, obv the closer you get to later positions the closer it becomes.
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ab1234
Poker Newbie
16 PostsRe: Philosophy Episode 4
really need to know this.... what is the best play when playing against a player who uses phil's strategy of calling 4b's with hands like Axs/75s in general with AK do you want to be shoving any flop or bet calling it off, or check shoving check/folding when we have just a little bit more than a PSB behind? anyone with any advice please help it would be greatly appreciated, thanks!
Philosophy Episode 4 » Bluefire Poker Videos / Articles
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