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Jimbozgrapes
Poker Prodigy
336 PostsTurn shove best play or spewy?
No Limit Holdem Tournament • 9 Players
$2.00+$0.20Converted by Bluefire Poker - Hand history Converter
UTG+1 3780 MP1 7055 MP2 1600 me (MP3) 5654 CO 3351 BTN 2060 SB 599 BB 10917 UTG 1700 Effective Stacks: 5bb
Blinds 60/120 Ante 15
Pre-Flop (315, 9 players)
Hero is MP3
4 folds, me raises to 240, 1 fold, BTN calls 240, 1 fold, BB calls 120
Flop (915, 3 players)
BB checks, me bets 360, BTN calls 360, BB folds
Turn (1635, 2 players)
Hero Jams the Clam
Low buy in turbo tournament early levels. The sb had not raised in 35 hands and was either folding or calling preflop, so i really didnt concider him when raising here (although even then it probably makes this a bad play pre flop, but oh well) . BB was a huge fish, and was check folding a ton of flops. so I felt this would be a marginally + ev spot I was willing to take with my pretty big chip stack.
The BTN tanked a bit before calling the flop bet, I was fairly sure he had either a flush draw or a middle pocket pair. He obviously does have a queen here some % of the time, so that is a concideration as well.
I really only have 2 choices here, I can check fold or shove the turn. Bet fold/bet call both seem aweful since if he shoves over me with his range, I am either crushed, or he still probably has 2 overs + FD + king to hit to beat me, giving him like 35% equity on average best case scenario, so betting small seems aweful.
My thinking was, shoving all-in is pretty counter intuitive, but to me seemed like the best play. It makes him fold his middle pair hands, and charges him if he wants to call on a flush draw. It seemed like a good spot to turn my hand into a bluff, since it puts him in an extremely tough spot, and my hand has at least a little equity vs his range.
So was this play good or bad?
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flakydorf
Poker Apprentice
228 PostsRe: Turn shove best play or spewy?
I would agree about your analysis on his range. With that in mind I don't mind jamming here, but expect to get looked up fairly light here sometimes. As is I think you played it fine.
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Jimbozgrapes
Poker Prodigy
336 PostsRe: Turn shove best play or spewy?
Okay, as I made the play it felt spewy, and again like I said seemed counter intuitive "Make him fold his hands that beat me, and make him call with hands I beat" just isn't a proper line of logic, but that was basically what I was thinking haha. Looking for some more thoughts before I post the result of the hand :) .
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BenPatt
Poker Newbie
12 PostsRe: Turn shove best play or spewy?
If you are going to put your stack at risk here dont you think its better to check call? I dont really agree you are getting better hands to fold and worse to call. If you check he is giong to check back 55-jj hands even though I doubt he ever doesnt jam 99-jj so really just 55-88 any Q hands and flush draws are his range. So the hands you beat (flush draws) likely jam and the hands. If you jam it just makes your hand more like a draw than an actual hand and IMO theres a chance he looks you up like 77-88 type hands. Just check call if you really want to showdown the hand but your best play is to check fold since your equity against the hands you beat is not even that great and the hands that play have you dead or near dead.
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Jimbozgrapes
Poker Prodigy
336 PostsRe: Re: Turn shove best play or spewy?
BenPatt wrote:
If you are going to put your stack at risk here dont you think its better to check call? I dont really agree you are getting better hands to fold and worse to call. If you check he is giong to check back 55-jj hands even though I doubt he ever doesnt jam 99-jj so really just 55-88 any Q hands and flush draws are his range. So the hands you beat (flush draws) likely jam and the hands. If you jam it just makes your hand more like a draw than an actual hand and IMO theres a chance he looks you up like 77-88 type hands. Just check call if you really want to showdown the hand but your best play is to check fold since your equity against the hands you beat is not even that great and the hands that play have you dead or near dead.
Check calling seems like the worst possible play to me. The only reason I would check is to try and get to show down. As I said in my original post, any hands that he is jamming on us here have probably at minimum 35% equity, and that is best case scenario. We are jamming because that also gives us some % of fold equity, where as check calling we don't have that and are a pretty big under dog to his range. Between the two options of check calling or jamming, jamming to me seems just strictly better. Again, if I am checking it is to give up on the hand, never to call.
IMO the only two options here are to jam, or to check give up. I am trying to think which of those two is the best, and I think it is pretty close.
Personally in turbo tournaments I like to play a lot faster, so in this situation that makes me lean more towards shoving then check folding.
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BenPatt
Poker Newbie
12 PostsRe: Turn shove best play or spewy?
We disagree on only one thing. I think jamming is really bad and check calling is only just bad. I am not saying to check call I am saying you will be ahead more. What of his calling range here do you think your ahead of? Assuming hes half way reasonable he will not call on a fd and you beat nothing else. If checked to he will near always jam a fd. Thats the only reason I am saying its better. Your best and really only option is to check fold or check and pray to show down but you very rarely will get to that point. You dont need to win every pot just give up.
Turn shove best play or spewy? » SNG / MTT Discussion
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