100nl HU. 4 bet flatted, whiffed AK on dry boards » Small Stakes No Limit Discussion

anyone?

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ervinsm84 wrote:

 

i think these are 2 pretty similar, common and interesting spots that come up with 4 bets getting flatted and these stacks. I have two pretty recent examples of these spots in 4 bet pot

Reads thus far:
villains somewhere between bad reg and mediocre recreational player.

hes 3betting pretty actively about 25% (10/37 times in about 100 hands thus far). Def has a spaz factor to him and has a general aversion to folding.

ive already cut out some of my opening range and have been folding about 15% as an adjustment so my opening range is a lot stronger than in the first 20 hands of the match, especially since im limping about 20% of hands as well, so really im only opening like 65% (of which is split like 50/50 between minR and 3x) but he doesnt seem to care and still is mashing the raise btn option.

General hands of interest:

he didnt 3 bet KsJs and donked 3 streets on Jxx with it and got me to pay off with JT

he opened AQs and flopped nuts on KJT and checked it back. and just called my turn lead. River 9 I had QJ and bet river and he minR river so i got off cheaply at least.

3 bet pots of interest.
He 3 bet, i defended QJ and small raised his cbet on Q83hh he flats. turn 4 non heart he checks, i ship he snap folded.


this is my first 4 bet of the match. i chose this larger sizing (instead of 22-25bbs) to discourage him from flatting and make it more of a jam/fold spot for him, but not surprisingly they never do what we want.

whats villains range?

So, our best line here? if we do bet, whats the best sizing?

if checking back whats our plan on turn/river?

56 in pot and 84$ behind.


PokerStars Game #43906309442: Hold'em No Limit ($0.50/$1.00 USD) - 2010/05/10 19:40:21 ET
Table 'Eros II' 2-max Seat #1 is the button
Seat 1: ervinsm ($130 in chips)
Seat 2: rappy300 ($112 in chips)
ervinsm: posts small blind $0.50
rappy300: posts big blind $1
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to ervinsm [Ks Ac]
ervinsm: raises $2 to $3
rappy300: raises $8 to $11
ervinsm: raises $17 to $28
rappy300: calls $17
*** FLOP *** [9d 9c 2c]
rappy300: checks
ervinsm:

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Second time a situation like this came up against diff villain
This guy had 3 bet just over 30% in a lil over 100 hands, which is definitely on the extreme aggro maniacal side. Hed 3 bet varying sizes vs my 3x opens that went from 10bbs, to 11bbs, to 9bbs (pot) and when id minRaise hed typically just 3 bet pot (6bbs) which is cool for me when i ahve a hand i want to play.

Ive seen him 3 bet QsTs and 3 barrell on A33 3 rainbow and then vbet the river T (fortunately i obv had the A)

hes vbet middle pair on flops ive checked back on the turn and river (which is one of the few good plays hes made)

hes defended vs my opens as wide as J3s and obv wider given hes folded his bb to my opens <15% of the time

I wish i had chosen a larger 4 bet size in this spot, but i didnt think the chances of this guy calling were nearly as high as the other guy given (1. his 3 bet range is wider) and 2. i expected him to be more inclined to close his eyes and 5 bet jam pre. But again, i was wrong and we get in the fun spot of this much $ in the pot with the nut high card hand on a pretty super dry board.

villains range?

best line? if betting what size and why?

if checking back..plan on turn/river?

Does any of the information given between the 2 villains or the separate board textures make you more or less likely to take a different line or typically taking the same line here in both spots?

PokerStars Game #44431387152: Hold'em No Limit ($0.50/$1.00 USD) - 2010/05/21 19:19:28 ET
Table 'Brabantia IV' 2-max Seat #1 is the button
Seat 1: ervinsm ($100 in chips)
Seat 2: YourDead100% ($99.95 in chips)
ervinsm: posts small blind $0.50
YourDead100%: posts big blind $1
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to ervinsm [Kd Ah]
ervinsm: raises $2 to $3
YourDead100%: raises $7 to $10
ervinsm: raises $14 to $24
YourDead100%: calls $14
*** FLOP *** [6s 4c Jh]
YourDead100%: checks
ervinsm:

 

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Of course this is all speculative, but from reading your thoughts on these players, I think i can extrapolate a bit.

Villian 2:  There 3 betting range is obviously the most important factor here.  What caught me was that you said villian two defended an open with J3s, but yet is 3 betting a ton.  I think its a fair assumption to make that this means he is most likely top heavyish with a wider value range.  We confirm this with you seeing him 3 bet with 10Qs.  So, I would not poloraize his 3 betting range, which means if 4 bet he gets put in a lot of wierd spots.  He isnt disciplined enough to realize how to adjust to a 4 bet and would inevitably have to flat some 4b coz QKs and JQs are just too good to fold right?????  So, I think a ton of the time you have him dominated preflop.  This probably also means he has mid pocket pairs in his 3 betting range, but a)im not sure about that b) im not sure if he flats a 4b or folds c) hands you dominate are much more likely.  That being said, he has a jack here way more than a polarized player does.  Hes super aggro with a weak range.  I dont see him flatting with AA, KK, AK often enough given he 3 bets a ton, so I really would discount those.  Its far mor likely he has a QJs, QKs hand.

So whats our best line? shoving should be out of the question.  Becuase you are threatening his stack with any bet, I think you make a smallish (half pot) c bet.  The reason I like this better than checking behind is becuase if he fires the turn when we check the flop, we dont know if we induced him (coz hes super aggro) or if he has a J or 99, 10 10 etc.  I think we end up in a more profitable situation by betting about half pot on this flop to fold mid pairs sometimes, and to put ourselves in a better situation to wint he hand.  If he just calls, we have 6 outs, and we are giving up on the hand otherwise (these outs might make him two pair, but oh well).  Also, when we check and he bets the turn, we are enticing him to beat us with a worse hand more often and even widening his value range.
 If the flop was more like 2 7 9 rainbow, I prefer a check to induce.  A jack or queen high flop makes me much more inclined ot c bet.

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bmmartin wrote:

Villian one is more polarized with his 3 betting and seems to be stupidly tricky when he has the nuts.  I think AA KK are much more part of his range than in villian 2.  I would be extremely weary of any 4b he flats, as I think its very weighted towards a superior hand.  Im not sure if c betting does anything for you here, since what is he going to be flatting preflop that wouldnt call or shove this flop?  He isnt like villian two, and you dont have to think hands like QJ KJ QK etc.  betting for protection seems to be - ev here.  And I check this flop.  I could be wrong with my thought process here, but I would like to hear arguments of why it would be better to c bet.  The reason i check this is because I like taking the free card hoping for an A and I dont see what i am getting him to fold.

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Hi Bmmartin,

I agree with your analysis of player 2, but i think OP sayed player 1 also 3bets a ton and this is the first 4 bet pot. Ok he slowplayed the nuts in a single raised pot in position but that doesnt mean he slowplays preflop in 4bet pots oop as well. I think his range consists of a lot of broad way cards, suited connectors and worse aces (aq, aj, at ...), maybe 77-tt. I think in the first 4 bet pot he shoves jj+. It is possible his range is strong, but i would be rather surprised to see that in this spot.

Peace,

Meeeeh

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bmmartin wrote:

I may be weigthing too heavily on a superioir hand, but I do want to point out that villian 1 is mor elikely to have one than villian 2.  If we are to assume the his range is top heavish with braodways as well (which im not so sure about, I think he prolly 3b bluffs a ton), what line do we take?  We are checking to induce or cbetting to protect? the flop is so dry Im not sure c betting does anything (like we are never folding a pair) and he could bluff us of the best hand.  thoughts?
 

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I would cbet to protect/value (aq aj may call since its so dry) and also to put him to a decision instead
of us on the turn or river. When he calls we try to get to showdown and maybe hit a six outer. I think we
are not getting bluffed that often in the first 4bet pot so we can fold to a shove and adjust to checking the next time on a similar board.