interesting flop spot in 3bet pot » Medium Stakes No Limit Discussion

  • pokerswans pokerswans Poker Newbie
    7 Posts
    interesting flop spot in 3bet pot
    11 Jan 2011 at 12:41pm

    $2.00/$4.00 No Limit Holdem • 6 Players

    Converted by Bluefire Poker - Hand history Converter

    BTN villain 400.00  
    SB sb 400.00  
    BB bb 400.00  
    UTG utg 126.50  
    UTG+1 hero 427.00  
    CO co 422.90  

    Effective Stacks: 32bb

    Pre-Flop (6.00, 6 players)

    Hero is UTG+1

    dQdA

    1 fold, hero raises to 16.00, 1 fold, villain raises to 44.00, 2 folds, hero calls 28.00

    Flop (94.00, 2 players)

     

    dTc7cA

    hero checks, villain bets 45.00,

     

    dont know much about villain other than he is fairly aggro reg. 3bets quite a lot.

    i feel when i check-call flop here i have a lot of AJ/AQ type hands and therefore if i do check-call he can play very well vs me and im essentially guessing turns/rivers.

    if i check-raise small, i have to call it off should he shove but my equity isnt that great vs his get it in range. if i check-jam i rep a draw and am more likely to get hero-called by KK/Tx type hands (probably?).

    whats best vs a relative unknown whom we know to be aggro? is there any benefit to any of the 3 options by creating a specific 'image' from making that play?

  • sslovick sslovick Poker Newbie
    7 Posts
    Re: interesting flop spot in 3bet pot
    11 Jan 2011 at 1:48pm

    Check Jam makes sense to me. 

    Folding also makes sense. Setting up a weak image for a later move. 

    Villains range could contain many flush draws, or AK A10 maybe he hit trips. 

     

    Flat calling is out of the question cause a dead card or a club makes his perceived range even stronger. 

    I am folding online and Jamming in a live game. 

  • flakydorf flakydorf Poker Trainee
    173 Posts
    Re: interesting flop spot in 3bet pot
    11 Jan 2011 at 2:13pm

    Maybe I'm missing something, but why would we c/f here? We have TP, good kicker, and would be ahead a fair amount of the time. We also have backdoor straight and flush draws. I understand a raise or jam, but why a c/f?

  • BlueOrchid BlueOrchid Poker Newbie
    10 Posts
    Re: interesting flop spot in 3bet pot
    11 Jan 2011 at 2:25pm

    check jam makes zero sense to me. check fold makes even less.

    check call with no plans to fold unless the board comes off teribble or check raise small and give him a chance to spaz seem best lines to me

  • Thebowskii Thebowskii Poker Prodigy
    324 Posts
    Re: interesting flop spot in 3bet pot
    11 Jan 2011 at 3:30pm

    I don't know what better flop you want thank ATxss AQQ?

     

    For what it's worth when you c/c here you are repping A(broadway) and pocket pairs JJ-QQ.  I think that if I check raise it will be larger but not check shove unles you would really CRAI a flushdraw here as it both gives villain no chance to much a worse ace and also allows him to 3bet all in draws. 

    If he were to call our c/r then it makes our turn decision easier as we can fire all in ~ 100% of blanks if he flats.  I don't mind the check shove, it is is far better than a small raise IMO but I think he can find a fold with a worse ace and obviously is mucking KK-JJ @ that point.

    How often was villain 3betting and had you seen him showdown in in 3bet pots with the initiatve? 

    c/c protcts your KQ, JJ, QQ types here but if we check call I think we need to CRAI turn blanks or lead if we think he will not continue barreling a blank.  I actually think the turn is a much more difficult spot if say jack of diamonds comes.

  • Jimbozgrapes Jimbozgrapes Poker Prodigy
    252 Posts
    Re: interesting flop spot in 3bet pot
    11 Jan 2011 at 4:47pm

    You have to think on this flop you are going to have the best hand a vast majority of the time, and he is going to be c-betting close to 100% of his range on this flop. Personally I would c/c most of the time on this flop, because you are rarely going to get 3 streets of value from anything worse, so by c/c you can pick up some value betting the turn, or by checking the turn and betting the river (assuming relativly safe cards fall) .

    The reasons a check raise would be good is you are going to maximaxe your value right now against something like J/J-K/K, a draw, or A/J, however I think you can still get another street of value like that as said before, and these hands may fold. Which is why check raising may be bad, as you might get all worse hands to fold, and only get played back by better. If you are an agro nut, you should be raising in this spot for value a lot more because people will be more likely to pay you off with the formentioned hands.

    Another reason why c/r may be bad, is their are a lot of turn cards that help you gain equity if you are beat, so c/c will allow you to gain a lot more outs on the turn if he is betting really heavily. any broadway card (minus a 10) and any diamond is gainaing you a lot of additional equity, and will make it a lot easyer for you to continue with the hand if he continues to bet agressivly.

    If you ever thought of check folding in this spot, don't play A/Q to a 3 bet.

  • sslovick sslovick Poker Newbie
    7 Posts
    Re: Re: interesting flop spot in 3bet pot
    11 Jan 2011 at 8:14pm

    Hypothetically....

    If you call

    And a Club, J or 6 hits the board.

    Can you stay in the hand if the Villian bets the turn?

     

  • oddeye oddeye Poker Newbie
    44 Posts
    Re: Re: Re: interesting flop spot in 3bet pot
    17 Jan 2011 at 1:15am

    sslovick wrote:

    Hypothetically....

    If you call

    And a Club, J or 6 hits the board.

    Can you stay in the hand if the Villian bets the turn?

     

    Yes. I would c/c 6 and c/j a club, considering villain is aggressive.

  • overbet56 overbet56 Poker Newbie
    32 Posts
    Re: interesting flop spot in 3bet pot
    23 Jan 2011 at 12:40am

    I feel like c/c and c/r are both fine, and really come down to villain's tendencies and how he's going to react to either option you choose.  Vs someone who is going to barrel off on this board way to frequently, then a c/c is better.  (Not only because you have a great hand to c/c down with, but it strengthens your overall flop c/c range, which is going to be a good thing vs villains like this.)  If you are against a villain to is very floaty, then I do like a c/r and then taking certain lines based on the specific turn card.  (Sometimes bet/calling, sometimes check/shoving, sometimes check/calling, rarely check/folding).  Against a very good player with good frequencies and no tendencies you can exploit in this spot, I would mix it up between both options.

     

    With the info we have on villain, I would prefer a flop c/c and plan on calling down unless the board gets disgustingly bad.

  • dild0g dild0g Poker Newbie
    36 Posts
    Re: interesting flop spot in 3bet pot
    23 Jan 2011 at 2:15am

    "whats best vs a relative unknown whom we know to be aggro?"

     

    c/c is best for me at least.  c/f is too weak, we got top pair good kicker and some back doors, c/r just folds out his air and if he 3bets and we get it in, the only hand we beat is a draw at best.

     

    off topic since there is no turn spot but i might wanna c/shove a diamond turn tho. if we get it in bad we still have some outs.  but some might say "we are folding out a worse hand or air that might bet the river if we c/c turn and we win less money by c/shoving."  yeah, and the reason for that is he is aggro, and he is on our direct left  and we want him to stop.  if it was HU i like c/c 3 streets here and we'll be good some of the time and we win the most money from him.  but in HU the very next hand we have position on him.

     

    in our case since it is 6max.  he has position on every hand except when we are at the BU.  we need him to stop being aggro.  or we just leave the fucking table.