Top 2 200bb v. fish, do I vbet river? » Medium Stakes No Limit Discussion

I have been pounding on this fish and getting the best of him. He will play any two suited. Question is when flush hits on the river, do I still valuebet? I assume that he calls down with top pairs or any shitty 2 pairs. My pf call is also weird, and I made it only because the fish was in the hand. Anyone just fold it pf?

Full Tilt Poker Game #14048801370: Table Vintners (6 max) - $2/$4 - No Limit Hold'em - 14:36:56 ET - 2009/08/15
Seat 1: TuCKeRo ($358.90)
Seat 2: 2711theclub ($984.05)
Seat 3: COOLRUNNINGS77 ($819.80)
Seat 4: gtr789 ($80)
Seat 5: pispopo ($406)
Seat 6: JusFknCliknBtns ($512.70)
gtr789 posts the small blind of $2
pispopo posts the big blind of $4
The button is in seat #3
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to COOLRUNNINGS77 [Ks 7s]
JusFknCliknBtns raises to $14
TuCKeRo folds
2711theclub calls $14
COOLRUNNINGS77 calls $14
gtr789 folds
gtr789 adds $2
pispopo folds
*** FLOP *** [Jc Kh 7c]
JusFknCliknBtns checks
2711theclub bets $44
COOLRUNNINGS77 has 15 seconds left to act
COOLRUNNINGS77 raises to $134
JusFknCliknBtns folds
2711theclub calls $90
*** TURN *** [Jc Kh 7c] [5d]
2711theclub checks
COOLRUNNINGS77 bets $245
2711theclub has 15 seconds left to act
2711theclub calls $245
*** RIVER *** [Jc Kh 7c 5d] [6c]
2711theclub checks
COOLRUNNINGS77 has 15 seconds left to act
COOLRUNNINGS77 has requested TIME

Does he ever turn hands to bluffs or is he a showdown monkey?  If its the latter I think you arent exploiting him as much as you can if you shove (like the other poster suggested).  If he is a showdown monkey this might be a spot to check to him, but based on your read that he will call down  weaker hands I would elect to bet.

I think preflop your decision to call really depends on the non fish, JusFknCliknBtns, range here.  Isolating the fish here with a 3b is not that good if btns is semi tight from utg.  I think calling here is is fine becuase you are trying to play as many pots as you can with the fish.  This is a better play if you know how both act in a three way pot.

I thinkt he flop is actually very interesting.  The fish bets the missed cbet.  With the fish betting here you should have a good idea of what his range is here.  Is he betting fd's in a 3 way pot?  Is he that aggro to bet that?  His aggression in this spot should really allow you to get a read on his range here.  If he is the type of fish to bet any piece any draw than this obviously is great for you.

Again you should have an idea of his turn tendencies, is he ever x raising with 2 pair or a set or would he be calling his whole range here?

I think think checking the river you are losing out on some value.  I think he is only x raising here with a flush but he is calling her with a ton of hands you beat.  For that reason, you are losing value if you do not bet.

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IrwinFletcher wrote:

I feel like this is going to be too thin on the river given the stack sizes.  Even a fish would be hard pressed to call you with worse once the flush card hits the river since it was the obvious draw.  

His range for bet calling the flop and check calling the turn is going to be QT, Kx, and the flush draw.  The bigger hands like top two pair and sets would have to raise on the turn this deep to protect.  On the river QT missed, Kx will probably fold the majority of the time and the flush has you beat.

In addition, if he did decide to chase the flush, by betting the river this deep you will have justified the poor call that he made on the turn.  

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It depends on the fish.  You can bet very small here and get value out of worse with almos tno chance of being raised unless beat for many fishy players.  This all becomes player dependant but squeezing value vs the right type of fish will be very profitable.  I am not advocating a push or large bet by any means, if you elect to bet you should bet small.  This is only exploitable to somebody who knows what you are doing and you are exploiting this type of player by being UNBALANCED with your bet sizing.  Phil showed this quite well in his msnl videos
 

Basically, vs a showdown clown I will bet very thin for value and exploit him with my bet sizing.  This situation applies perfectly to that player.

Vs a reg or decent player this is a clear check back, but it is NOT a check back for everyone you face, and you should always be thinking about spots where you can get more value out of worse players.

Going by Running read of villian calling down with top pair or shittier two pairs you are LOSING value if you do not bet.  The card combos with that read give you an edge when you bet making it +ev.

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coolrunnings77 wrote:

I have been pounding on this fish and getting the best of him. He will play any two suited. Question is when flush hits on the river, do I still valuebet? I assume that he calls down with top pairs or any shitty 2 pairs. My pf call is also weird, and I made it only because the fish was in the hand. Anyone just fold it pf?

 

 

Full Tilt Poker Game #14048801370: Table Vintners (6 max) - $2/$4 - No Limit Hold'em - 14:36:56 ET - 2009/08/15
Seat 1: TuCKeRo ($358.90)
Seat 2: 2711theclub ($984.05)
Seat 3: COOLRUNNINGS77 ($819.80)
Seat 4: gtr789 ($80)
Seat 5: pispopo ($406)
Seat 6: JusFknCliknBtns ($512.70)
gtr789 posts the small blind of $2
pispopo posts the big blind of $4
The button is in seat #3
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to COOLRUNNINGS77 [Ks 7s]
JusFknCliknBtns raises to $14
TuCKeRo folds
2711theclub calls $14
COOLRUNNINGS77 calls $14
gtr789 folds
gtr789 adds $2
pispopo folds
*** FLOP *** [Jc Kh 7c]
JusFknCliknBtns checks
2711theclub bets $44
COOLRUNNINGS77 has 15 seconds left to act
COOLRUNNINGS77 raises to $134
JusFknCliknBtns folds
2711theclub calls $90
*** TURN *** [Jc Kh 7c] [5d]
2711theclub checks
COOLRUNNINGS77 bets $245
2711theclub has 15 seconds left to act
2711theclub calls $245
*** RIVER *** [Jc Kh 7c 5d] [6c]
2711theclub checks
COOLRUNNINGS77 has 15 seconds left to act
COOLRUNNINGS77 has requested TIME

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I think as long as the blinds aren't too squeeze happy, preflop is fine, although I think given stack depth and who villain is, that a 3bet would have been better as long as he's not a 4b monkey.
 

Ok well the river depends on a few things.  a)  Are you ahead of his river check/call range?  a2)  What worse 2 pairs are in his range.  Can he c/c turn with J6s?K5s?76s?  b)  Can he have a flush here?  How does he play his flushdraws on earlier streets?  Given that you think he's calling with all top pairs and worse 2 pairs, I think you can pretty comfortably shove river for value IF you think there are enough worse two pairs in his range.  I think it's pretty unlikely that he has a better 2 pair or a set, so I feel like the only things your losing to are flushes and 98.

 i disagree i would just raise it on the flop vs a fish. and if fish is the only description i am shoving this river