3/6 QJs Late Position Battle » Medium Stakes No Limit Discussion

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NimanKenkre wrote:

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Haupt_234 wrote:

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NimanKenkre wrote:

your reraise on the flop should be much bigger. 

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Why is that? Don't I want him to think he ha some fold equity with all of his draws? So by 3betting smaller, a lot of players take the right to last initiative and shove a lot of draws which I have crushed....

If I raise larger, no hands that beat me are folding anyway after they raise this flop CO vs. button.. please explain?

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you still have only a drawing hand against any made hand that he is continue this far with; your hand has way too much equity to ever fold on the pot, but by min-reraising, you make it easy for him to call with a hand like he had.  furthermore, you put yourself in a gross position if you brick on the turn (since you don't know whether he has a draw or a real hand) and now there is only one card left.  your hand is incredibly powerful on the flop - but you don't know HOW:  you don't know if you want the board to brick out or if you want that flush.  your hand - while supremely powerful (and impossible to be dominated) on the flop - does not play well on the turn.  it is not like you already have a monster that you need to slowplay.  fold equity is a decent part of the equity you have in this hand.  if you get it all in, you are probably close to even money against his range.  so you need that additional fold equity for your hand to play as powerfully as it deserves.  does this make sense?

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Yes, thank you :)

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SirNeb wrote:

Given the stack sizes, and the type of hands we are dealing with, I just don't think flop 3betting is really merited at least for this hand.  If you want to get shoved on, you could do it with practically any "value" hand, it doesn't even have to be TP.  Because whatever he's 4bet shoving you, he either has you already or you are ahead.

So with dynamics where you are 3bet bluffing his positional raises a lot because he's bluff raising often, then for sure you want to stick in a small raise to induce a 4bet bluff shove with any hand of value.  But with a hand like TP + FD, you are ahead of his random raising range and tons of equity if behind.  You also balance your range to become unbluffable on any turn.  Even if you have to fold all river shoves, it won't be that bad for you because villain would give up a % of the time and you do get there like at least 1/5 of the time(which makes a great bluff card for villain's "preceived" range).

Calling his raise is definitely a superior +EV play against his range.  I just don't like the logic in the 3bet for our hand.  And I would never c/f as played because of our 3bet sizing, villain should know he needs to shove his entire air/drawing range on the turn unimproved.  I actually don't like him shoving AQ on this turn all that much, I don't think he'll be doing that great against your c/calling range after the flop action.

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I am afraid that - at least in my opinion - you are very wrong here Sir Neb.  With a hand like this, it is impossible to be dominated.  No matter what your opponent might have, you are either ahead or have plenty of outs.  You are a favorite against anything except a set - and you are not in horrible shape against a set.  The problem is that you are out of position and you do not know what you need.  Do you need a spade, or do you want it to brick out?  With two pair or trips give you the best hand?  Thus, your hand has optimal value when you play it very hard on the flop.  Otherwise you allow your opponent to make easy and optimal decisions later in the hand.  This is almost always the case with these types of hands, but particularly so when you are oop.  Moreover, it is important to play hands like these hard in order to provide balance for your monsters.  If you are only reraising betting your already made monsters, then you will be very exploitable.

Not only is it not a mistake to reraise here, it is actually a pretty sizeable mistake NOT to.

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SirNeb wrote:

Thanks Niman for your reply.  Though, I still have trouble seeing how 3betting is a better line because we already have a decent made hand.  If villain has worse than our TP, he's gone once we 3bet large.  If he has a legit raising made hand, then we are most definitely behind. 

Maybe this is where I'm stuck, but would 3betting be folding any hand that is beating us that raises for value on this flop?  If we want worse hands to shove over us this deep, we would have to raise it the size that OP had originally made it, so we can actually get shoved on by worse(3bet to 250ish, ~500 left behind).  It's like what I said before, we 3bet to fold out worse, and 3bet/get it in against better.  Obviously we aren't in bad shape getting it in, but it's almost a waste of our TP.  Which is basically my original argument.

I guess the other main consideration is the cost of playing OOP for the rest of the hand versus if we just a.) took the pot down on the flop or b.) we get it in decently(probably behind).

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You are very welcome Sir Neb.  The fact that you are continuing to question my analysis and not just accept it without understanding shows that your approach to poker is a great one.  This kind of critical analysis is the key to becoming a great player.  To answer your question, we reraise here for multiple reasons.  (1) with the tremendous strength we are showing, we can sometimes get better hands to fold; (2) we balance our monsters, so that our opponents cannot put us squarely on a set or the like when we do reraise in this spot for straight value; (3) we are never in horrible shape no matter what our opponent has, so we have reasonable hand making equity even if we do play for stacks against a better hand; (4) we have the opportunity to play a big pot as a massive favorite (for instance, a lower flush draw is drawing dead to runner runner non spade) while never getting it in as a huge dog; (5) (this one is very important) we do not know what we need:  we have a very powerful hand, but we do not know if we need the board to brick out or if we want the flush to come; (6) if we do hit our hand and it catches up to our opponent, we have few implied odds; and finally, (7) the hand loses much of its value and equity on the turn.

It is for these reasons that it is almost always a good idea to play pair+fd or other combo draw hands very hard.  I hope that answers your questions.  Let me know if that all makes sense!

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SirNeb wrote:

I'm flattered by your kind words.  Thanks. 

And yes, you make perfect sense after you lay out your reasonings so clearly.  I'm going to definitely have to think about it more, and re-weight them in my decision making.  Thank you very much for your time and clarifications!

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You are very welcome Sir Neb.  Best of luck at the tables!

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PureEnergy8 wrote:

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NimanKenkre wrote:

your reraise on the flop should be much bigger. 

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I'm intrested in how much you would make  it in this situation.And how you play it on the turn,when you miss.And how you'd act if you hit your draw.

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Sorry for the cryptic answer, but the answers to those questions are very opponent and flow specific.  I would in general try to reraise a comitting amount on the flop, such that I could shove any turn.  But if my flop reraise was not comitting, I'd have to evaluate my opponent's tendencies, stack sizes, and perhaps any recent history.