Folding KK when an Ace flops? » High Stakes No Limit Discussion

PokerStars Hold'em No Limit ($5/$10) 6-max Seat #4 is the button
Seat 1 ($434.55 in chips)
Seat 2:($1000 in chips)
Seat 3: ($1000 in chips)
Seat 4:(591.95 in chips)
Seat 5: ($1092 in chips)
Seat 6: ($2111.50 in chips)
 

*** HOLE CARDS ***

HERO [Ks Kh] First to act Raises$12 to $22

Seat 2 : calls  (second to act)
BigBlind Calls

SB folds

*** FLOP *** [8h 5s As]
JonKelly4: checks
Seat 2: bets $50
BB: folds
JonKelly4: calls $50
*** TURN *** [8h 5s As] [4c]
JonKelly4: checks
Seat 2: bets $120  (pot $301 with bet included)
JonKelly4: folds

Do you think this is a good fold? Maybe I played the hand wrong or its fine?

I know I could raise more preflop, but I min bet preflop, I like to mix it up sometimes and was  hoping for a late position raise or button steal/raise. Also,post flop i have deception of my hand strength.

Seat 2 is a tight aggro player, multi-tables, 5/10 REG Doesn't play many hands, esp out of position, Range calling the preflop raise early positon. AA-99 maybe AKo AQo AJo A10s, KQ, maybe KJs or K10s and few suited connecters, but hes pretty tight and was second to act. See him raising with Qs or better and maybe AKs.

Samoleus was playing at the table, what did you think? (adtina22 was the villain)

---

YouGoTGoT wrote:

Im a micro stakes player so disregard me if you want but there a few fundamental mistakes you made that im sure others will agree with.  First u should raise something like 35 pre from UTG, i understand ur min raise theory but keeping ur bet sizing consisent will have them just as confused if not more.  As for the flop you HAVE to cbet this, I hate this check.  Check calling is the WORST thing you can do here Idont care what stakes your at, your better off just check folding.  By check calling your leaving yourself completely clueless as to your opponents range, which is already hard to establish due to your silly preflop raise.  If you cbet the flop and he raises you will have a better idea of where hes at based on ur reads on him and if he calls then you can check or bet the turn depeding on whether you think hes capable of floating you in that spot.  Based on the way you played this hands hes probably just pouncing on your weakness knowing you arent a great player.  I mean you raise small pre and check to him TWICE, my kid sister would double barrel you here man CMON.

Just my 2 cents

---

"By check calling your leaving yourself completely clueless as to your opponents range,"

I knew his range before the hand started  :-)

How much would you have bet on the flop, With 2 players behide you to act? This villain plays Aces, did you not read what reads I had on the player? At micro stakes, cards are the most important, but higher stakes the player is the most important. Example cards don't matter "if you knew what the other players cards were , you wouldn't even care what cards you were holding"  . Villain would most likly reraise the flop with an Ace (he doesnt play weak Aces) I just can't see him betting without an Ace here.  

Again think the villain in this hand had Ace, He is too timid to 2 barrel without an A or  flopped set. I think, he would check down QQ, JJ, 10s, 9s.  Dont see him with Qs, Js because he did not reraise preflop.

The only thing I think, I would have changed is raising more preflop. But at 5/10 a lot of tricky players will try and steal late position with say 89s. And that just never happens at the micro levels.

imo fine fold...given the range the only suited connector he'd play made the straight, any ace has you beaten, any set has you beaten and i dont think he's likely to bluff the preflop raiser on an Ahigh board...

but i really, reaaaally dislike the minraise preflop...on the site i play on people did it for a while from the button..but most of them stopped doing it...

but u better ask phil :D "when a scarecard..." :))

---

NimanKenkre wrote:

---

YouGoTGoT wrote:

Im a micro stakes player so disregard me if you want but there a few fundamental mistakes you made that im sure others will agree with.  First u should raise something like 35 pre from UTG, i understand ur min raise theory but keeping ur bet sizing consisent will have them just as confused if not more.  As for the flop you HAVE to cbet this, I hate this check.  Check calling is the WORST thing you can do here Idont care what stakes your at, your better off just check folding.  By check calling your leaving yourself completely clueless as to your opponents range, which is already hard to establish due to your silly preflop raise.  If you cbet the flop and he raises you will have a better idea of where hes at based on ur reads on him and if he calls then you can check or bet the turn depeding on whether you think hes capable of floating you in that spot.  Based on the way you played this hands hes probably just pouncing on your weakness knowing you arent a great player.  I mean you raise small pre and check to him TWICE, my kid sister would double barrel you here man CMON.

Just my 2 cents

---

Sorry to be harsh, but this is completely wrong.  Check calling is by far the best play and nothing else is close.  A bet will not get called by any worse hands, will not fold out any better hands, and you are in a way ahead/way behind situation.  In a spot like this, the correct play is to check and induce:  then you can make decisions on subsequent streets based on your opponent's tendencies and frequencies.

Betting the flop "for information" is a disastrously horrible concept and should never ever be a part of your game.

I think the OP played this hand fine.  Any other play on the flop would have been inferior.

---

I think that YouGoTGoT's urge to bet this flop comes from the fact that this is exactly the type of play that is taught by most of the other training sites.  The play is designed to keep you from having to guess where you are at later in the hand.  You bet with KK, and essentially give up if called.  That way you don't put yourself in a tough spot on the turn after you check and call a bet on the flop. 

The problem with it as Niman pointed out is that it will typically fold out most worse hands and not fold out any better hands, where as a check call will still not fold out better hands obviously, but will get value from worse hands that decide to bluff.  Additionally smaller pairs may decide to call down on the turn and/or river if the flop checks through, thinking that you are the one now bluffing.  It does make for much harder decisions, but I think it is the most +EV way to play the hand. 

Another way to think about it is the hand KK on a Axx board is only worth x number of bets.  It will not get three streets of value from a worse hand and likely not even two streets.  By leading the flop the hand is over represented and the pot will become too large for it's actual strength.  KK on Axx should prefer to play a small pot. 

---

Delichef wrote:

I can see the logic behind checking to induce on the flop....but then why fold the turn? Are you only looking to pick off 1 barrel bluffs? Would he fire two barrels with spades or when he fires on the turn are you almost always against an ace?

---

I might call the turn if it was heads up the whole hand. Maybe even reraise on the flop.

But, it wasn't head ups when he bet the flop, which means he would have had to  bet a flush draw out of position, which is unlikely. Againist this player its almost always an Ace.